What is the Baptism of Holy Spirit and Fire? I submit some thoughts below, and welcome any feedback.

Matt. 3:10-12 reads:

"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Here we see that the baptism of Holy Spirit and Fire involves the burning up of the chaff with unquenchable fire. The language here is the same language used of "Hellfire" throughout the 4 gospels. So it is evident that to be baptized with fire is to be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Indeed, Jesus described His own death on the cross as a baptism of fire (Luke 12:49-50), and so it becomes evident that the second death is none but the death of the second Adam. To be baptized with fire, then, is to be crucified with Christ (Romans 6:4). It is to have the lusts of the flesh crucified; it is to have the wood. hay, and stubble consumed in the Holy flame of God (1 Corinthians 3:15).

Thoughts?

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.
A person is warned of their sin.
Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The unrepentant are damned to Hell.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Jesus will follow and baptise with the Holy Spirit, the reference to "fire" here is not explained and to state that it means one thing or another is pure irresponsible speculation.
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Jesus will seperate the good from the bad (wheat from chaff), put the good in His home (wheat in the barn, saved in Heaven), and put the bad in Hell (chaff in the unquenchable fire). When reading scripture remember to compare one phrase with those that have the same sense or content in other areas.

You interpretation involves several notions not supported by the meaning of the text.

Thanks for the response.

I'm not sure why you say that the referent of fire is unclear. The fire is explicitly said to be the unquenchable fire of Hell which burns up the chaff. Where is the irresponsible speculation in this? Moreover, it is quite clear that the fire is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit (e.g. Isaiah 4:4, Hebrews 12:29).

Jesus indeed will separate the good from the bad (wheat from the chaff), as He separates the good from the bad within all of us (1 Cor. 3:15).

What notions am I entertaining exactly that are not supported by the meaning of the text? I'd happy to dig deeper with you. God bless.

The fire is explicitly said to be the unquenchable fire of Hell which burns up the chaff.
No it is not. The notion that a saved person will be baptised by hellfire goes against the rest of scripture.
You must compare your notions to the entirety of scripture, not just your personal thoughts on a single sentence.

You are stringing bits of scripture together that have nothing to do with each other than that the word "fire"
is in them. The saved don't get burnt with hellfire, period.

Let's take another look:

Matt. 3:10-12
"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

It is quite obvious that the same fire is in mind throughout this passage.

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The notion that a saved person will be baptised by hellfire goes against the rest of scripture.

I disagree. Revelation says that believers will not be hurt by the second death, but it doesn't say they will not experience the second death. Think of the men in the fiery furnace who "had no hurt" (Dan. 3:25). They were in the fire, yet the fire did not hurt them.

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You must compare your notions to the entirety of scripture, not just your personal thoughts on a single sentence.

I am aware of this, thanks. Bible study is nothing new to me.

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You are stringing bits of scripture together that have nothing to do with each other than that the word "fire"
is in them. The saved don't get burnt with hellfire, period.

I have suggested the connections in the OP. Can you address what I wrote? Let's discuss these passages individually and see if they do or don't fit together. Sound good?

It is quite obvious that the same fire is in mind throughout this passage.
Only to you.

Revelation says that believers will not be hurt by the second death, but it doesn't say they will not experience the second death. Think of the men in the fiery furnace who "had no hurt" (Dan. 3:25). They were in the fire, yet the fire did not hurt them.

The "second death" is damnation (i.e. going to Hell) so it's bloody obvious that the saved are not going to Hell, otherwise they aren't saved. Again you take scripture that has nothing to do with the issue and bring it in to play.
Dan. 3:25 has nothing whatsoever to do with Matt. 3:10-12.

I have neither the time nor the patience to discuss every permutation of scripture that I know will be tossed my way.
I only wished to point out that you were drawing conclusions that are not supported by scripture. A habit that is understandable, but all too common these days and is the cause of most of the sillier heresies that plague the modern protestant church.

So you think that v. 11 talks about a different fire than the fire spoken of in v.10 and v.12? That is a counter-intuitive reading, to say the least. I'd be interested in hearing you out on this. There obviously is a connection between the fire of v.11 and the fire of v. 10 and v.12. What do you suppose is the connection?

The saved are not going to Hell, that is correct. They have already gone to Hell by dying with Jesus, which is why the second death will not hurt them.

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I have neither the time nor the patience to discuss every permutation of scripture that I know will be tossed my way.
I only wished to point out that you were drawing conclusions that are not supported by scripture. A habit that is understandable, but all too common these days and is the cause of most of the sillier heresies that plague the modern protestant church.

Merely asserting that I am mistaken is not tantamount to demonstrating that I'm mistaken. I'm not interested in being told I'm right ot wrong; I'm interested in being shown how I am right or wrong. If you are not interested in discussion, then there simply is no need for you to respond here.

The saved are not going to Hell, that is correct. They have already gone to Hell by dying with Jesus, which is why the second death will not hurt them.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
You are just not getting this. The saved will NEVER SEE OR EXPERIENCE HELL. The have not " gone to Hell by dying with Jesus".
They did not "die with Jesus". They will not experience the second death at all.

Where do you get this stuff? Not from the Bible certainly.

This is what scripture has to say on the issue.
A person lives. Said person dies (the first death) . After their physical death they are judged by God.
After judgement they go to one of two places, Heaven or Hell. Heaven is "Eternal Life", Hell is the "second death".

If you can't grasp this, I strongly suggest you go speak to a pastor of a major denomination (i.e. Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) about your miscomprehensions.

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The saved will NEVER SEE OR EXPERIENCE HELL. The have not " gone to Hell by dying with Jesus".
They did not "die with Jesus". They will not experience the second death at all.

Are you not familiar with the Biblical truth that we are raised with Jesus only after dying with Him? See Romans 6:4, for starters. Obviously we have different understandings of the Hell texts in the Bible. I have noted your disagreement. There is no need for you to further assert that you disagree. On the other hand, I'd more than welcome an actual analysis of my exegsis.

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A person lives. Said person dies (the first death) . After their physical death they are judged by God.
After judgement they go to one of two places, Heaven or Hell. Heaven is "Eternal Life", Hell is the "second death".

Nay, the second death is the destruction of death itself (Rev. 20:14). Yes indeed, the baptism of Spirit and fire is the swallowing up of death in victory (1 Cor. 15:26).

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If you can't grasp this, I strongly suggest you go speak to a pastor of a major denomination (i.e. Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) about your miscomprehensions.

Oh, I get it..I just don't agree that it is Biblical.

Verse,in case you missed it the first time:

So you think that v. 11 talks about a different fire than the fire spoken of in v.10 and v.12? That is a counter-intuitive reading, to say the least. I'd be interested in hearing you out on this. There obviously is a connection between the fire of v.11 and the fire of v. 10 and v.12. What do you suppose is the connection?

Just a thought...

I assume by your posts, ROCKST★R that you believe this fire is actual fire. (smoke, flames, soot, etc.) I believe the same, because that's what it says; however, I pose this question to you: Could this actual fire be some type of actual fire, besides actual Hell fire? Perhaps REFINING fire, which is quite actual! Though there are not (usually) physical flames, the refining fire of God's Holy Spirit, is quite a fire and burns up the chaff in our lives. Maybe a type of spiritual fire?

The Greek Concordance says THAT word πυρί (pyri) translates as "fire" in Matt 3:11 and 12. This word (pyri) occurs 17 times in the New Testament and means the same every time it is used: actual fire (see below)

Matthew 3:11 N-DNS
BIB: ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί
NAS: you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
KJV: Ghost, and [with] fire:
INT: Holy and with fire
Matthew 3:12 N-DNS
BIB: ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ
NAS: up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV: the chaff with unquenchable fire.
INT: [the] chaff he will burn up with fire unquenchable
Matthew 13:40 N-DNS
BIB: ζιζάνια καὶ πυρὶ κατακαίεται οὕτως
NAS: up and burned with fire, so
KJV: and burned in the fire; so shall it be
INT: weeds and in fire is consumed thus
Mark 9:49 N-DNS
BIB: πᾶς γὰρ πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται καὶ
NAS: will be salted with fire.
KJV: shall be salted with fire, and
INT: everyone indeed with fire will be salted and
Luke 3:16 N-DNS
BIB: ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί
NAS: you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
KJV: Ghost and with fire:
INT: Holy and with fire
Luke 3:17 N-DNS
BIB: ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ
NAS: up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV: he will burn with fire unquenchable.
INT: [the] chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable
1 Corinthians 3:13 N-DNS
BIB: ὅτι ἐν πυρὶ ἀποκαλύπτεται καὶ
NAS: it is [to be] revealed with fire, and the fire
KJV: by fire; and
INT: because in fire it is revealed and
2 Thessalonians 1:8 N-DNS
BIB: ἐν πυρὶ φλογός διδόντος
KJV: In flaming fire taking vengeance
INT: in a fire of flame awarding
Hebrews 12:18 N-DNS
BIB: καὶ κεκαυμένῳ πυρὶ καὶ γνόφῳ
NAS: and to a blazing fire, and to darkness
KJV: that burned with fire, nor
INT: and having been kindled with fire and to obscurity
2 Peter 3:7 N-DNS
BIB: τεθησαυρισμένοι εἰσὶν πυρὶ τηρούμενοι εἰς
NAS: are being reserved for fire, kept
KJV: reserved unto fire against
INT: treasured up are for fire being kept to
Revelation 8:8 N-DNS
BIB: ὄρος μέγα πυρὶ καιόμενον ἐβλήθη
NAS: burning with fire was thrown
KJV: burning with fire was cast
INT: a mountain great with fire burning was cast
Revelation 14:10 N-DNS
BIB: βασανισθήσεται ἐν πυρὶ καὶ θείῳ
NAS: and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone
KJV: with fire and
INT: he will be tormented in fire and brimstone
Revelation 15:2 N-DNS
BIB: ὑαλίνην μεμιγμένην πυρί καὶ τοὺς
NAS: mixed with fire, and those
KJV: mingled with fire: and
INT: glass mingled with fire and the
Revelation 16:8 N-DNS
BIB: ἀνθρώπους ἐν πυρί
NAS: to it to scorch men with fire.
KJV: men with fire.
INT: men with fire
Revelation 17:16 N-DNS
BIB: κατακαύσουσιν ἐν πυρί
NAS: and will burn her up with fire.
KJV: her with fire.
INT: will burn with fire
Revelation 18:8 N-DNS
BIB: καὶ ἐν πυρὶ κατακαυθήσεται ὅτι
NAS: and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord
KJV: with fire: for
INT: and with fire she will be burned for
Revelation 21:8 N-DNS
BIB: τῇ καιομένῃ πυρὶ καὶ θείῳ
NAS: that burns with fire and brimstone,
KJV: which burneth with fire and brimstone:
INT: which burns with fire and brimstone

Personally, I subscribe to the notion that He wrote some verses in such beautiful style that they can sometimes mean something physical AND simultaneously mean something metaphorical or theoretical - without losing an ounce of its meaning.

God bless you as you endeavor for HIS TRUTH!!,

You are intentionally butchering scripture too suit your own notions.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
It could not be any more plain.

I won't argue with you as it is obvious that you are not willing to listen.